Doctor or Nurse?

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I hear you, and agree with your post 99%. Nurses are ancillary staff and they take orders from doctors. But there is more to nursing than simply carrying out orders - this is only a fraction of their job. If OP wants to have a career in nursing, he doesn't HAVE to become an NP or DNP. Most RNs I know are happy.

I don't see where bringing up RNs detracts from his point that nurses carry out orders. Certain clinical duties are delegated to DNPs, but they remain nursing staff.

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I hear you, and agree with your post 99%. Nurses are ancillary staff and they take orders from doctors. But there is more to nursing than simply carrying out orders - this is only a fraction of their job. If OP wants to have a career in nursing, he doesn't HAVE to become an NP or DNP. Most RNs I know are happy.

A fraction, but a significant one. Would health care be effectively provided if that was all the RNs did? Yes. Does healthcare benefit from RNs caring for patients above/beyond this? Yes, of course. But at it's core, being an RN is about collecting data and putting plans into action. I would say that being a lawyer is more similar to doctor than a nurse is to either. It is about perspective and expectations more than anything.
 
I don't see where bringing up RNs detracts from his point that nurses carry out orders. Certain clinical duties are delegated to DNPs, but they remain nursing staff.

I'm not trying to detract from his point, but I think the basic RN certification is being vastly undersold to OP if he is seriously considering the nursing profession. Yes carrying out orders is a significant fraction of the job description, but less significant than you guys think, though this is understandable since you are medical students and not nursing students.
 
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I just meant that the word 'merging' wasn't the verb I would use to describe what is happening (different topic entirely). And you are correct, they end up doing the same thing. This will be even more obvious after there is only 1 match. Soooo... :D

I'm right! !:cool:

Not that it matters..people are gonna believe what they want anyway...le sigh... FWIW this thread just illustrates what i told the OP.. Gotta sort through the rubbish to find the gems...

But Madame wanted her information customized and served up on a platter, cut into neat little triangles...smh
 
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I'm not trying to detract from his point, but I think the basic RN certification is being vastly undersold to OP if he is seriously considering the nursing profession. Yes carrying out orders is a significant fraction of the job description, but less significant than you guys think, though this is understandable since you are medical students and not nursing students.

I am a physician that for all practical purposes lives in the hospital. I dont think who is saying it means as much as you do.
 
I'm not trying to detract from his point, but I think the basic RN certification is being vastly undersold to OP if he is seriously considering the nursing profession. Yes carrying out orders is a significant fraction of the job description, but less significant than you guys think, though this is understandable since you are medical students and not nursing students.

See this is the problem. For some reason people think "carrying out orders" is some demeaning and negative thing. They think they have to prove that "we can do more than that" to have some worth. Monitoring patients, carrying out orders, these are INTEGRAL and these are IMPORTANT things. It is important. It is very important. If you don't know all the information on the patient for the last 24 hours as recorded and reported by a nurse, you can't develop a very effective treatment plan. The physician can't be by the patient's bedside every hour all day. There just aren't enough of them and there is too much to do. That's what nurses are there to do. In fact, it's a big deal if nurses don't take monitoring seriously enough.
 
Yes. Historically osteopaths WERE quite different. But... they havent been for well... since before you were born. Today DO and MD practice medicine entirely the same with the exception of OMT. Some DOs are nicer and the patient thinks this means "holisic" i.e. "he cared about me as a PERSON!" :rolleyes: but so are some MDs. As many MDs employ alternative therapies as do DOs, in fact quackwatch.org has more MDs on its watch list than DOs :smuggrin:

DOs are a newer and weaker degree which is why many have lower entry standards, but in terms of licensing they are on equal footing with MDs. So basically the governing body of DOs (AOA) has been holding on to its influence for reasons that are largely financial while the two degrees become indistinguishable in practice. That changed recently, however, as AOA residencies will now be overseen by the ACGME.

Man there is arrogance all over you and you aren't even done with medical school. You seem to really be egocentric in that you truly believe you opinions to be fact. DO is a weaker degree? Really? You're already rolling your eyes at patients and your still a student? Thumbs up on your own statements? Other people are supposed to give you praise not ourselves. Have a good one and keep studying hard my friend. Thanks for the clarification on DO's being the same MD's, only a more weak degree.
 
Man there is arrogance all over you and you aren't even done with medical school. You seem to really be egocentric in that you truly believe you opinions to be fact. DO is a weaker degree? Really? You're already rolling your eyes at patients and your still a student? Thumbs up on your own statements? Other people are supposed to give you praise not ourselves. Have a good one and keep studying hard my friend. Thanks for the clarification on DO's being the same MD's, only a more weak degree.

If you would let go of your butthurtness for just a second you would actually see the sense in what he is saying.

DO is a "weaker" degree not in that the DO's are undertrained, but because there are many misconceptions about them and they tend not to match into the very best residencies. Also DO schools do not usually admit the Einsteins of the medical profession as MD schools do. Aside from that and other mostly superficial reasons, MD's and DO's are essentially the same.

There are DO's who see only the disease just like you claim MD's do and there are MD's interested in the wellbeing of the whole person. The "holistic" approach is more a philosophy than some method of care taught to DO's and Nurses and not to MD's.
 
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See this is the problem. For some reason people think "carrying out orders" is some demeaning and negative thing. They think they have to prove that "we can do more than that" to have some worth. Monitoring patients, carrying out orders, these are INTEGRAL and these are IMPORTANT things. It is important. It is very important. If you don't know all the information on the patient for the last 24 hours as recorded and reported by a nurse, you can't develop a very effective treatment plan. The physician can't be by the patient's bedside every hour all day. There just aren't enough of them and there is too much to do. That's what nurses are there to do. In fact, it's a big deal if nurses don't take monitoring seriously enough.

That's sort of my point. When someone unfamiliar (OP) with the profession hears that all RNs do is carry out orders as described in the previous post, this portrays RNs as sort of mindless pawns serving the physicians. You mentioned monitoring patients - this is another significant duty of RNs that was not mentioned to OP. When a patient switches rhythms, drops his pressure, has a change in mental status, it is the responsibility of the RN to notice and page the team. Not to mention they are responsible for dressing changes, cleaning the patient, and for recognizing when a doctor messes up and writes wrong or dangerous orders (which sometimes happens), among other things.

I'm not trying to defend nurses or compare professions really in any way, but only trying to accurately describe RNs to OP so he can make an educated decision.

I am a physician that for all practical purposes lives in the hospital. I dont think who is saying it means as much as you do.

Understandable, but my perspective comes from working in the nursing dept. for nearly 3 years.
 
That's sort of my point. When someone unfamiliar with the profession hears that all RNs do is carry out orders as described in the previous post, this portrays RNs as sort of mindless pawns serving the physicians. You mentioned monitoring patients - this is another significant duty of RNs that was not mentioned to OP. When a patient switches rhythms, drops his pressure, has a change in mental status, it is the responsibility of the RN to notice and page the team. Not to mention they are responsible for dressing changes, cleaning the patient, and for recognizing when a doctor messes up and writes wrong or dangerous orders (which sometimes happens).

I'm not trying to defend nurses or compare professions really in any way, but only trying to accurately describe RNs to OP so he can make an educated decision.

Surely not the whole medical team...;)
 
Hi. I've been in college for about 2 1/2 years now as a premed student, however, I'm looking more at the nursing field. Someone suggested to me that I might be more compatible to nursing than to being a physician. I was just wondering what the differences are, in terms of what I would do in either job position, between being a NP and a physician. They have pretty similar authorities and responsibilities. What really separates them?--other than one's a "nurse" and one's a "doctor."--And why would someone say my personality matches more to a nurse?--What characteristics do nurses typically have that doctors don't typically have (not to say one's all one way and one's all another way)?


Looking at the OP, it's pretty clear what he/she is asking...and it it not about RN's.

He/she apparently wants to be a doctor but someone told him/her that becoming an NP might be better as NP's and MD/DO's have " pretty similar authorities and responsibilities." (which they do not btw...and the OP was told this several times)

OP wants to know what separates them aside from that one is a nurse and one is a doctor...well...one is a nurse and one is a doctor...different things. Their activities may rely one on the other but they still have different roles in the team. The fact that doctors may start IV's does not make them nurses and the fact that some nurses can write prescriptions (under the supervision of a doctor btw) does not make them doctors capable of functioning independently.

It's like having someone with a BSc in Physics, a MS in Physics and a PhD in Physics. Same subject, different levels of knowledge and experience and exposure. Could a someone with a bachelors in physics comprehend some aspects of graduate topics in physics? Probably. Would they be able to teach it or apply it with the same level of skill and comprehension that someone with a graduate degree in physics (with emphasis on that topic) would use? Likely not.
Will they be offered a job whose explicit requirements call for a graduate degree in Physics? Nope. Would they be qualified for this job? Maybe, if they had taken it upon themselves to educate themselves further than undergrad level..but in that case why not just get into a grad program and get it done with?

Nurses with many decades of experience may have seen enough to know as much as doctors do. But if you want to be a doctor with the associated responsibilities and privileges, medical school is the way to do it. But is that what is happeneing? Not really. I'm willing to bet there are people who took the fast track Bachelors of Nursing, Masters and then PhD of Nursing who would want the same "authorities and responsibilities" that doctors have without any of the experience to back it up. This is where there is concern and rightfully so.
 
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Man there is arrogance all over you and you aren't even done with medical school. You seem to really be egocentric in that you truly believe you opinions to be fact. DO is a weaker degree? Really? You're already rolling your eyes at patients and your still a student? Thumbs up on your own statements? Other people are supposed to give you praise not ourselves. Have a good one and keep studying hard my friend. Thanks for the clarification on DO's being the same MD's, only a more weak degree.

See below:





If you would let go of your butthurtness for just a second you would actually see the sense in what he is saying.

DO is a "weaker" degree not in that the DO's are undertrained, but because there are many misconceptions about them and they tend not to match into the very best residencies. Also DO schools do not usually admit the Einsteins of the medical profession as MD schools do. Aside from that and other mostly superficial reasons, MD's and DO's are essentially the same.

There are DO's who see only the disease just like you claim MD's do and there are MD's interested in the wellbeing of the whole person. The "holistic" approach is more a philosophy than some method of care taught to DO's and Nurses and not to MD's.
:thumbup:

Dude... you are responding to connotation only. And apparently stuck in some fantasy where all patient views need to be agreed with. There is a difference between respect and agreement. Listen to freesia here because this is all I was saying
 
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If you would let go of your butthurtness for just a second you would actually see the sense in what he is saying.

:laugh:

Good-good-let-the-butthurt-flow-through-you-1.jpeg
 
I'm willing to bet there are people who took the fast track Bachelors of Nursing, Masters and then PhD of Nursing who would want the same "authorities and responsibilities" that doctors have without any of the experience to back it up.

~9 years of nursing education vs ~ 9 years of medicine education (for the average residency).

Sounds very fast-tracked to me!
 
~9 years of nursing education vs ~ 9 years of medicine education (for the average residency).

Sounds very fast-tracked to me!


Because what is taught and should be learned in those years are the same, right?:rolleyes:

Please do not misunderstand me. I think NP's play a very vital role. In fact I would prefer that a rural or underserved area atleast have an NP rather than no medical professional at all ...as long as they are supervised by doctors.

But to say that NP's have the same knowledge as doctors and should be able to practice independently is, for lack of a better term, ridiculous.
 
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Because what is taught and should be learned in those years are the same, right?:rolleyes:

Sorry, I had always thought that "fast-trackedness" concerned the time period, not the content and the intensity! My bad, really.
 
~9 years of nursing education vs ~ 9 years of medicine education (for the average residency).

Sounds very fast-tracked to me!

The difference is 2 years of nursing education (2 year RN) can get you a $50k/year job, while 2 years of pre-med can get you pretty much nothing.
 
Well, from the research I saw, NP can diagnose and prescribe drugs, which is why I said SOME of their capabilities are similar. I'm not asking for some happy unrealistic medium. You guys are putting words in my mouth and being very antagonistic and condescending, and it's really unnecessary. If you guys are/become doctors, and this is how you react when someone asks for help, I hope you're never my doctor.

Oh little Johnny I know you think you know it all but this is why I proposed him/her looking at a DO's approach.

http://www.aacom.org/about/osteomed/pages/default.aspx

If you knew what holistic meant you would know, that's a Nurse's approach to medicine.

I'm not gonna get into a who's penis is bigger. A question was asked and my thoughts were given. If you don't agree with it then that's ok also. I respect that you're a keyboard cage fighter.

Burnett's Law ☑
clueless premed spouting off about "holistic" approaches ☑
being condescending and sanctimonious despite aforementioned ignorance ☑
mention of optometry ☐
 
The difference is 2 years of nursing education (2 year RN) can get you a $50k/year job, while 2 years of pre-med can get you pretty much nothing.

Heh yeah....and I'm pretty sure nurses make much more than 50k/yr
 
OP, obviously you are not going to get biased answers in the pre-medical section of the student doctor network.....

Smart thinking
 
OP, I have noticed that you got mad over some "rude" people here on SDN.

Whether you become a doctor or nurse, flipping out like this on rude people is unacceptable. You will encounter rude people...no doubt.

A doctor is someone who is very knowledgeable in the sciences and applies such knowledge for the care of the patient disease. A primary care doctor is more focused on the patient's psychology and overall health-care. A specialist just cares about the disease the patient has.

A nurse is a lot like a primary care physician thus is focused on the overall psychology and health of their patients. In a hospital setting, there is a very limited number of doctors so nurses take the place to comfort patients.

If you like some of the aspects of a nurse and some of a specialist doctor, I suggest NP, PA or primary care doctor. They care for the patients overall psychology and health.

My advice is that since you are asking this question, you are having doubts about medicine, so forget medicine and become a nurse. Overall, you will not grieve in your decision. You don't have to deal with the negative pressure of competition in the pre-medical era and the constant fear of getting sued and the constant depression of many years into education. Overall, you will not have time for your family (if you plan on one). As a nurse, competition is not as great, exams and boards are not as bad, there is no fear of messing up, you are not depressed and you have time to care for a family and there will be employment.

I am a male and despite all of the struggles of becoming a doctor and working as one, I still want to go with this field. Why? because I am stubborn. I have decided since I was 5 that I will be a doctor and I will not change this. I have become psychotically interested in the field of medicine. I want to be a doctor because I enjoy the science behind disease and the mysteries of diagnosis. I will probably not be the best patient care doctor, so I am thinking pathology. As a nurse, the understanding of the science behind disease is very limited.

Call me sexist, but if you are a female who plans on having a family, the nurse is the best way to go--I don't care what time period it is, women are genetically selected to care for their family more so than men. Women love their children more so than men. Women take care of their children more so than men. Welcome to a world of evolution. Why wouldn't natural selection favor women who nourish their offspring to be the strongest. You need to be there (if you are a woman) for your family--if not your husband will be upset and will most-likely cheat on you, your children will miss you. If you are a female who plans on not having a family, you could be either a doctor or a nurse. As a male, either is fine. But in modern society, male nurses are looked down upon and are made fun of (don't even question the fact! its true).



If you become a doctor: you won't have the time to enjoy life as much. you think a lot about medicine and disease and you will be studying and learning for the rest of your life. If you become a nurse: You will have time to enjoy life, go out with friends, think of the lesser things and care for a family.

(Op, you asked for a comparison of doctor and nurse not based on facts but based on opinion, I suggest you do research on this--I could go forever comparing the differences (in my opinion)
 
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I wonder if the NP's who want the authority, independence and responsibilities that MD/DO's have, include the malpractice issues under those responsibilities...
 
OP, I have noticed that you got mad over some "rude" people here on SDN.

Whether you become a doctor or nurse, flipping out like this on rude people is unacceptable. You will encounter rude people...no doubt.

A doctor is someone who is very knowledgeable in the sciences and applies such knowledge for the care of the patient disease. A primary care doctor is more focused on the patient's psychology and overall health-care. A specialist just cares about the disease the patient has.

A nurse is a lot like a primary care physician thus is focused on the overall psychology and health of their patients. In a hospital setting, there is a very limited number of doctors so nurses take the place to comfort patients.

If you like some of the aspects of a nurse and some of a specialist doctor, I suggest NP, PA or primary care doctor. They care for the patients overall psychology and health.

My advice is that since you are asking this question, you are having doubts about medicine, so forget medicine and become a nurse. Overall, you will not grieve in your decision. You don't have to deal with the negative pressure of competition in the pre-medical era and the constant fear of getting sued and the constant depression of many years into education. Overall, you will not have time for your family (if you plan on one). As a nurse, competition is not as great, exams and boards are not as bad, there is no fear of messing up, you are not depressed and you have time to care for a family and there will be employment.

I am a male and despite all of the struggles of becoming a doctor and working as one, I still want to go with this field. Why? because I am stubborn. I have decided since I was 5 that I will be a doctor and I will not change this. I have become psychotically interested in the field of medicine. I want to be a doctor because I enjoy the science behind disease and the mysteries of diagnosis. I will probably not be the best patient care doctor, so I am thinking pathology. As a nurse, the understanding of the science behind disease is very limited.

Call me sexist, but if you are a female who plans on having a family, the nurse is the best way to go--I don't care what time period it is, women are genetically selected to care for their family more so than men. Women love their children more so than men. Women take care of their children more so than men. Welcome to a world of evolution. Why wouldn't natural selection favor women who nourish their offspring to be the strongest. You need to be there (if you are a woman) for your family--if not your husband will be upset and will most-likely cheat on you, your children will miss you. If you are a female who plans on not having a family, you could be either a doctor or a nurse. As a male, either is fine. But in modern society, male nurses are looked down upon and are made fun of (don't even question the fact! its true).



If you become a doctor: you won't have the time to enjoy life as much. you think a lot about medicine and disease and you will be studying and learning for the rest of your life. If you become a nurse: You will have time to enjoy life, go out with friends, think of the lesser things and care for a family.

(Op, you asked for a comparison of doctor and nurse not based on facts but based on opinion, I suggest you do research on this--I could go forever comparing the differences (in my opinion)

...Of all the problems with this post, I will address the umbrella issue. OP didn't really "flip out" at all.
 
OP, I have noticed that you got mad over some "rude" people here on SDN.

Whether you become a doctor or nurse, flipping out like this on rude people is unacceptable. You will encounter rude people...no doubt.

A doctor is someone who is very knowledgeable in the sciences and applies such knowledge for the care of the patient disease. A primary care doctor is more focused on the patient's psychology and overall health-care. A specialist just cares about the disease the patient has.

A nurse is a lot like a primary care physician thus is focused on the overall psychology and health of their patients. In a hospital setting, there is a very limited number of doctors so nurses take the place to comfort patients.

If you like some of the aspects of a nurse and some of a specialist doctor, I suggest NP, PA or primary care doctor. They care for the patients overall psychology and health.

My advice is that since you are asking this question, you are having doubts about medicine, so forget medicine and become a nurse. Overall, you will not grieve in your decision. You don't have to deal with the negative pressure of competition in the pre-medical era and the constant fear of getting sued and the constant depression of many years into education. Overall, you will not have time for your family (if you plan on one). As a nurse, competition is not as great, exams and boards are not as bad, there is no fear of messing up, you are not depressed and you have time to care for a family and there will be employment.

I am a male and despite all of the struggles of becoming a doctor and working as one, I still want to go with this field. Why? because I am stubborn. I have decided since I was 5 that I will be a doctor and I will not change this. I have become psychotically interested in the field of medicine. I want to be a doctor because I enjoy the science behind disease and the mysteries of diagnosis. I will probably not be the best patient care doctor, so I am thinking pathology. As a nurse, the understanding of the science behind disease is very limited.

Call me sexist, but if you are a female who plans on having a family, the nurse is the best way to go--I don't care what time period it is, women are genetically selected to care for their family more so than men. Women love their children more so than men. Women take care of their children more so than men. Welcome to a world of evolution. Why wouldn't natural selection favor women who nourish their offspring to be the strongest. You need to be there (if you are a woman) for your family--if not your husband will be upset and will most-likely cheat on you, your children will miss you. If you are a female who plans on not having a family, you could be either a doctor or a nurse. As a male, either is fine. But in modern society, male nurses are looked down upon and are made fun of (don't even question the fact! its true).



If you become a doctor: you won't have the time to enjoy life as much. you think a lot about medicine and disease and you will be studying and learning for the rest of your life. If you become a nurse: You will have time to enjoy life, go out with friends, think of the lesser things and care for a family.

(Op, you asked for a comparison of doctor and nurse not based on facts but based on opinion, I suggest you do research on this--I could go forever comparing the differences (in my opinion)

Blue = your opinion
Red = things that are wrong/incorrect
Green = things that are true

[YOUTUBE]Tq-T49MqRiQ[/YOUTUBE]



ps. Sexist.
 
Well, from the research I saw, NP can diagnose and prescribe drugs, which is why I said SOME of their capabilities are similar. I'm not asking for some happy unrealistic medium. You guys are putting words in my mouth and being very antagonistic and condescending, and it's really unnecessary. If you guys are/become doctors, and this is how you react when someone asks for help, I hope you're never my doctor.

If you want to follow protocols and prescribe drugs, become a NP. If you want to use your knowledge of the human body to diagnose and treat patients, become a doctor.
 
just an observation but I'm a bit amazed by the prevailing attitude of those working in health care that it's not the person who is perpetrating the bullying or rude behavior's fault but rather the person who calls it out immediately gets blamed for not having a thick enough skin. whatever happened to professionalism?
 
The OP was told her personality was more in line with that of a nurse. An MD and DO do have different approaches to the way medicine is practiced. The OP's first ambition was to become a doctor. How is my suggesting to look at the way a DO practices not knowing what I'm talking about? Do you believe an MD and a DO have the same school of thought on medicine?

I just spent an entire month worthing with a DO attending (in a practice with only DOs) and didn't see him do anything different than a MD attending would have done. Didn't see him do OMM or slaughter a chicken to use its innards to divine a diagnosis or whatever else it is that DOs are supposed to do to be "holistic".
 
Blue = your opinion
Red = things that are wrong/incorrect
Green = things that are true

[YOUTUBE]Tq-T49MqRiQ[/YOUTUBE]



ps. Sexist.

Wow, thanks for breaking that down for me. You misunderstand what thoughts and opinion mean. All those red "mistakes" you pointed out are not mistakes, those are my thoughts and perception of those two fields. You obviously have different thoughts and perceptions-because you are a resident ;). So obviously you know more, enlighten us..
 
Nice, a MD vs DO vs [D]NP debate.

Op, you have to think about what you want to do, what fits you, what you can handle. I would advise you to shadow and volunteer so that you can get a sense of kind of work you want to do.
 
Call me sexist, but if you are a female who plans on having a family, the nurse is the best way to go--I don't care what time period it is, women are genetically selected to care for their family more so than men. Women love their children more so than men. Women take care of their children more so than men. Welcome to a world of evolution. Why wouldn't natural selection favor women who nourish their offspring to be the strongest. You need to be there (if you are a woman) for your family--if not your husband will be upset and will most-likely cheat on you, your children will miss you. If you are a female who plans on not having a family, you could be either a doctor or a nurse. As a male, either is fine. But in modern society, male nurses are looked down upon and are made fun of (don't even question the fact! its true).
)

Okay, I will call you sexist. You seem to believe that it is a woman's responsibility in life to rear children. The whole "genetic disposition" argument is complete crap, that's just a way for you to justify the hidden belief that women should not be working along side men as equals nor are men responsible for being good fathers. Furthermore, male nurses are not looked down upon except by arrogant people. I'm not sure where you got this idea, but please stop spreading this. Male nurses are probably more respected in hospitals, as men typically are treated with more respect due to this aforementioned problem of sexism.
 
Wow, thanks for breaking that down for me. You misunderstand what thoughts and opinion mean. All those red "mistakes" you pointed out are not mistakes, those are my thoughts and perception of those two fields. You obviously have different thoughts and perceptions-because you are a resident ;). So obviously you know more, enlighten us..

Can't decide if this is you actually asking to be enlightened or some pathetic attempt at sarcasm...either way:nono:

He actually gave you more greens than that post deserves.

Your thoughts and perceptions are very mistaken...But then, aren't you the kid who created the thread about preferring dumber women because they made you feel better about yourself?
 
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Wow, thanks for breaking that down for me. You misunderstand what thoughts and opinion mean. All those red "mistakes" you pointed out are not mistakes, those are my thoughts and perception of those two fields. You obviously have different thoughts and perceptions-because you are a resident ;). So obviously you know more, enlighten us..

Why are you offering thoughts and perceptions on the roles of a doctor and a nurse when you obviously have no idea what you're talking about? Also, you're acting like an ass towards one of the most helpful and knowledgeable people on this website. You seem to think that your sarcasm makes you look cynical and mature but it's actually pretty pathetic. And as a physician, he most certainly knows much more than you do about healthcare professionals.
 
If you want to follow protocols and prescribe drugs, become a NP. If you want to use your knowledge of the human body to diagnose and treat patients, become a doctor.

:rolleyes: I didnt realize NPs don't use their knowledge of the human body to diagnose and treat patients. I guess you learn something new everyday. I wonder what the P in NP stands for then....
 
just an observation but I'm a bit amazed by the prevailing attitude of those working in health care that it's not the person who is perpetrating the bullying or rude behavior's fault but rather the person who calls it out immediately gets blamed for not having a thick enough skin. whatever happened to professionalism?

Its not the attitude of healthcare. Its the attitude of the internet. Remember, under the white coat and behind the cold stethoscope doctors are people too :thumbup:
 
:rolleyes: I didnt realize NPs don't use their knowledge of the human body to diagnose and treat patients. I guess you learn something new everyday. I wonder what the P in NP stands for then....

Practically. As in "I'm practically a doctor".

I feel like outcomes are better if they just adhere to ebm protocols and leave the thinking to those who actually were trained to do this stuff. DNP training at wash U is basically RN + leadership seminar. Its scary that these people want to practice solo
 
. All those red "mistakes" you pointed out are not mistakes, those are my thoughts and perception of those two fields. ..

Why can't it be both? :shrug:

Also.... you realize you are arguing with a resident right? So your last quip a out him knowing much more than you..... yes that is accurate
 
Practically. As in "I'm practically a doctor".

I feel like outcomes are better if they just adhere to ebm protocols and leave the thinking to those who actually were trained to do this stuff. DNP training at wash U is basically RN + leadership seminar. Its scary that these people want to practice solo

It's actually "practitioner," but you knew that. Do they teach you to blindly condescend on nursing in medical school? I'm gonna try to refrain from engaging in another "nurses aren't trained to think, only doctors know anything about medicine" argument on a medical forum.
 
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:rolleyes: I didnt realize NPs don't use their knowledge of the human body to diagnose and treat patients. I guess you learn something new everyday. I wonder what the P in NP stands for then....

Nope, as far as I can tell it's pattern recognition for the vast majority. Nursing training in physiology and pathology is laughable, whereas that's all that physicians are learning the first two years of medical school. NPs are still practicing from a nursing standpoint, and it shows.

NB: I think this is why most physicians prefer PAs to NPs--they do have pretty much the same philosophy of training as us, just less in-depth.
 
It's actually "practitioner," but you knew that. Do they teach you to blindly condescend on nursing in medical school? I'm gonna try to refrain from engaging in another "nurses aren't trained to think, only doctors know anything about medicine" argument on a medical forum.

I take it you've never had a class in nursing or medical school.
 
Nope, as far as I can tell it's pattern recognition for the vast majority. Nursing training in physiology and pathology is laughable, whereas that's all that physicians are learning the first two years of medical school. NPs are still practicing from a nursing standpoint, and it shows.

NB: I think this is why most physicians prefer PAs to NPs--they do have pretty much the same philosophy of training as us, just less in-depth.

Well, I hope you're ready for a "laugh". Here's a sample curriculum for an NP program. Top listing on my google search, but feel free to find similar. I see a course "pathophysiology", as well as physiology on there...only one semester, and certainly not as thorough as patho in MD school, but it's there.
https://sharepoint.washington.edu/n..._app_mat/Curriculum Grids/ANP-GCPAPN-Grid.pdf
 
It's actually "practitioner," but you knew that. Do they teach you to blindly condescend on nursing in medical school? I'm gonna try to refrain from engaging in another "nurses aren't trained to think, only doctors know anything about medicine" argument on a medical forum.

Nope. Self taught :D

It isn't blind.
 
Well, I hope you're ready for a "laugh". Here's a sample curriculum for an NP program. Top listing on my google search, but feel free to find similar. I see a course "pathophysiology", as well as physiology on there...only one semester, and certainly not as thorough as patho in MD school, but it's there.
https://sharepoint.washington.edu/n..._app_mat/Curriculum Grids/ANP-GCPAPN-Grid.pdf
That's fine. But if you ask many physicians that have midlevels in your field they draw off of pattern recognition experience. They're not thinking this through to the same extent as a physician.

Take the CRNA: Oh, the BP is high. I gave labetalol before and it worked. I'm going to try it again. They're not thinking preload, afterload, contractility, etc.

Floor nurses: Oh, the patient can't poop. Well, I gave miralax before and it worked, so I'll call and ask for it again.

The nursing model and the physician model do not follow the same lines and the thinking is not the same. It just isn't. That doesn't mean DNPs are not useful. They are. But, they're not the complete answer to a primary care shortage or any other issues in healthcare.
 
Nope. Self taught :D

It isn't blind.

Heh fair enough. But seriously, and this is out of my curiosity as well, is there really ever a situation where you are observing an NP assess a patient in medical school? aka a situation that you could actually observe flaws in their treatment that would cause you to make a statement like: "I feel like outcomes are better if they just adhere to ebm protocols". I DO understand that NPs are expected to adhere to ebm moreso than physicians are, for the record, but your statement says a little more than that.
 
Heh fair enough. But seriously, and this is out of my curiosity as well, is there really ever a situation where you are observing an NP assess a patient in medical school? aka a situation that you could actually observe flaws in their treatment that would cause you to make a statement like: "I feel like outcomes are better if they just adhere to ebm protocols". I DO understand that NPs are expected to adhere to ebm moreso than physicians are, for the record, but your statement says a little more than that.
I often followed an NP during my outpatient gyn week on OB/GYN. She had been doing it for a while and was also teaching at the local CC. There were some things she didn't know, but that was moreso me being closer to the classroom than her. I didn't think anything of her not remembering Eisenmenger's.
 
That's fine. But if you ask many physicians that have midlevels in your field they draw off of pattern recognition experience. They're not thinking this through to the same extent as a physician.

Take the CRNA: Oh, the BP is high. I gave labetalol before and it worked. I'm going to try it again. They're not thinking preload, afterload, contractility, etc.

Floor nurses: Oh, the patient can't poop. Well, I gave miralax before and it worked, so I'll call and ask for it again.

The nursing model and the physician model do not follow the same lines and the thinking is not the same. It just isn't. That doesn't mean DNPs are not useful. They are. But, they're not the complete answer to a primary care shortage or any other issues in healthcare.

But they are actually considering these things. Not as much as a physician is, but they are.

I agree with the rest of your post, and I think you've put the comparison as well as anyone has. They certainly are not thinking things through as much as a physician would, and shouldn't be expected to, but they are thinking things through.
 
:rolleyes: I didnt realize NPs don't use their knowledge of the human body to diagnose and treat patients. I guess you learn something new everyday. I wonder what the P in NP stands for then....

It's actually "practitioner," but you knew that. Do they teach you to blindly condescend on nursing in medical school? I'm gonna try to refrain from engaging in another "nurses aren't trained to think, only doctors know anything about medicine" argument on a medical forum.

Well, I hope you're ready for a "laugh". Here's a sample curriculum for an NP program. Top listing on my google search, but feel free to find similar. I see a course "pathophysiology", as well as physiology on there...only one semester, and certainly not as thorough as patho in MD school, but it's there.
https://sharepoint.washington.edu/n..._app_mat/Curriculum Grids/ANP-GCPAPN-Grid.pdf

It's not that nurses are not trained to think. They are not trained to think as doctors do, and that is where the fundamental difference lies. Not to disparage the training of NP's but if you think someone with a Bachelors in Nursing, plus the classes taught in that curriculum you linked can approach a patient with the same skill set as a med school grad who had completed a residency, you are sorely mistaken....
 
Heh fair enough. But seriously, and this is out of my curiosity as well, is there really ever a situation where you are observing an NP assess a patient in medical school? aka a situation that you could actually observe flaws in their treatment that would cause you to make a statement like: "I feel like outcomes are better if they just adhere to ebm protocols". I DO understand that NPs are expected to adhere to ebm moreso than physicians are, for the record, but your statement says a little more than that.

It was my experience as a patient and looking at their curriculum. Their training is more akin to apprenticeship vs classic med ed. A trained monkey will eventually learn to associate symptoms w treatments without having studied the underlying mechanisms

Bacchus summed it up nicely
 
But they are actually considering these things. Not as much as a physician is, but they are.

I agree with the rest of your post, and I think you've put the comparison as well as anyone has. They certainly are not thinking things through as much as a physician would, and shouldn't be expected to, but they are thinking things through.

So why would they want to practice independently of physicians???:confused:
 
So why would they want to practice independently of physicians???:confused:

This was never my argument actually....and for the record, I don't think this is a good idea, but that's irrelevant...my only argument was that nurses aren't simply the monkeys following orders that were being described earlier in the thread.

Otherwise, I think we've finally reached a common ground on this discussion...or at least close enough to one :)
 
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